Paul Gardner on Building Businesses That Elevate Lives

[00:00:00] Mary: Hello listeners. Thanks for tuning in. In this episode, I talk with Paul Gardner, owner, CEO and Visionary of Rock Solid Vanities. They manufacture vanities for the North American market, but Paul would say they're in the business of delivering happiness. We cover some of the major events in Paul's life that led him to this moment, building the company and community that he's doing so intentionally right now.

[00:00:22] Mary: Those lessons include some early experiences in sports. Being part of and eventually taking over a family business. And now as a father of kids who are going out into the world and building their own career, some of the lessons he hopes they take away. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

[00:00:39] Mary: Have a good one.

[00:00:40] Mary: Welcome to and that changed everything. I'm your host, Mary Fearon, and this is a show where some of the world's most interesting and successful people unpack three pivotal moments that shaped who they are and how they show up. I've been working with business leaders for decades, and it's clear, it's the stories, not the [00:01:00] titles that shape us.

[00:01:01] Mary: These moments change how we lead, how we live, and what we make possible. I learned so much from each of these conversations, and I hope you do too. Let's jump in.

[00:01:11] Mary: Okay, so tell me what's bringing you joy these days?

[00:01:16] Paul: Bringing me joy. Well I just spent two weeks out west and one week with my family out on Main Island and, uh, doing some hiking and just relaxing and, and I would say just been. Doing a lot of thinking about my, about my kids who aren't kids anymore, but my daughter just got married, so she's 29.

[00:01:37] Paul: I have a 27 and 24-year-old boys. And I think, you know, just for me, what's bringing me joy out of that is, is looking at their careers. They're all in sort of different, different parts of their career and. Besides the advice coming from my side around various things like how you're planning your day and, and things like [00:02:00] that and seeing the success that they are having, but also layering into that, you know, what outside mentorship are they going out and getting from others?

[00:02:08] Paul: Because I think, I think for their success. This is what they do need to be doing. They need to be going out and being influenced by others. And, and quite frankly, that's actually why none of them will ever, certainly in the short term, come into my business. Um, right. Because I, what I believe, and I would say one of my early challenges in my career was I did go into a family business and in retrospect, I think that was a, uh, um, a poor decision.

[00:02:37] Paul: To be honest I think they, they need to go out and get trained by others and learn from others. So, so I think just seeing the path that they're all on, which is all, they're being all very, very successful in what they're doing and they're on the right path. So as a parent, yeah. You know, what else could you ask for?

[00:02:56] Paul: Right? So I look at, and I say, say, how do I supercharge [00:03:00] them? I'm always looking at that and they get, of course, they get tired of me sending them AI stuff and learn this, learn that, right. Every day. I, I probably overdo it, but I'm just trying to teach them to keep learning.

[00:03:13] Mary: I love that. So I think about it too, like, my kids are 18 and 20 and my youngest is going off to university now.

[00:03:20] Mary: And so we're heading into this whole new stage of life for them. And so it's a different role you play as a parent. And so for you, I mean, geez, fast forward for me a few years and you're seeing them in their careers, they're doing well. You know, they're into relationships that are healthy and, and you know, they're progressing on that front.

[00:03:36] Mary: Like that's kind of like the perfect outcome that you could dream, dream of, right?

[00:03:42] Paul: Abs. Absolutely. I mean, relationships are hard, right? I mean, for, for them at that age. And, you know, being a longevity guy myself, I also sit there and go, you know, there's no rush. Don't you know, there's no rush here.

[00:03:56] Paul: You got lots of times. So, you know, don't feel like, uh, you [00:04:00] have any sort of peer pressure about getting married or having kids or this or that, right? So, yeah. You know what, in your, you're in your twenties, work hard, learn. You know? Yes. Have fun. We all had fun in our twenties, but, uh, but it is time to transition to, putting your nose down and get going.

[00:04:20] Mary: I love it. I'm gonna send my kids to you when they're that age. And, uh, they stop listening to me. When you said outside, outside mentorship, I'm like, oh, I have an idea.

[00:04:28] Paul: Yeah, there you go. Right? Yeah. Right, right. Oh

[00:04:30] Mary: yeah.

[00:04:31] Paul: So, but it's funny, it's funny you say that, actually.

[00:04:34] Paul: Because I actually do believe in that for sure. And I would happy be happy to do that. Okay. And even, I actually, my daughter just got married and a couple of her friends had actually said at the wedding, believe it or not, how influential. Both my wife and I were on them growing up. So that was, uh, honestly, that was an incredible moment for me and my wife to, to actually hear that.

[00:04:58] Paul: 'cause you, because a lot of times you don't, [00:05:00] you don't get that feedback, so, no.

[00:05:02] Mary: So it was

[00:05:02] Paul: lovely to, it was lovely to hear that, that a positive impact on their lives.

[00:05:07] Mary: Not only do you not hear it, but you don't like do they think it. So the fact that they think it and then share it with you is like double, like a double win.

[00:05:15] Mary: Pretty. That's really cool. Pretty

[00:05:16] Paul: amazing. Yeah, it is. It was pretty amazing.

[00:05:18] Mary: Awesome. Well thanks for that. So I am talking to Paul Gardner today. He is the owner of Rock Solid Vanities. I guess head office in Ontario, north of Toronto with operations north and south of the border. So you're, you're in the us, you're in Canada, and what I love about your business is yes, you manufacture vanities, but you're really in the business of delivering happiness.

[00:05:39] Mary: And so, um, I've seen your operations in your team from the inside out, and, uh, you truly live that where you're focused on your customer needs and making them, you know . Making them successful at every single touch point, which is super cool. Super cool. Yeah,

[00:05:56] Paul: it's, it's critical, right? The concept of removing that friction all the way [00:06:00] along the line and really truly listening.

[00:06:03] Paul: So I, you know, I said I was just out, out in BC for Prince Columbia for, for two weeks and, um, obviously I did some business while I was out there and doing customer store visits. And first they're surprised that the principal. Comes to their store. 'cause that just never happens. Right. And then actually taking an interest in where are your friction points? Where is it that we can do better? And, and, and where you can, A lot of times it's just communication, like they're little things. Um, and if you can clean that up for them on the spot there, it becomes this wow moment, right? Like, wow. Yeah. The principal of the company came to the shop, listened to our issue, and actually resolved it for us.

[00:06:41] Paul: Like, like it's something unique. I mean, everybody should be doing that. Well, it is something unique. Well, and that's kind of sad that it is unique, right? Because that's what everybody should be doing. Totally. So. He here inside, sorry. Inside the business here, we really kind of have switched to what I would, [00:07:00] what I call self-managing teams, and certainly through some of the coaching at, at Strategic Coach and a little bit from Tony Robbins and a little bit this and that.

[00:07:08] Paul: Mm-hmm. We sort of put this, this program together. We really don't have a middle management anymore. And driving down that what I, what, what I term, you know, clarity and prioritization, and if you're constantly giving that to your people, you're setting them up for success. And, and and, and then letting them run.

[00:07:31] Paul: And what I can say is, is that the team here in the last really year has really done an incredible job taking that and running with it.

[00:07:44] Mary: Yeah.

[00:07:44] Paul: So the, the time it takes for us to manage people now. Is so low compared to, I'd say two years ago, three years ago.

[00:07:53] Mary: That's pretty incredible. I know that you're in a continuous improvement business.

[00:07:57] Mary: Yeah. And you're on the path of scaling the business too. [00:08:00] I know Your team isn't huge. Yeah. And yet you're swinging at some pretty significant growth. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah.

[00:08:08] Paul: Yeah. You know, you just, I think I obviously the last five, six years has been pretty challenging for most companies.

[00:08:16] Paul: Really probably, you know, I'm, I'm 58. Uh, I would say the last five years have been the most tumultuous in my career. Certainly we've had moments like 2008, 2009, where it just got really bad during the, uh, savings of loans issue in the us. But. But the number of things that have occurred between supply chain and COVID now tariffs it's been an incredible.

[00:08:46] Paul: Difficult time for, especially for manufacturing companies. I think, I think service companies may be a little bit easier, um, although they have issues just with volume and consumer confidence and all the rest of it. Um, yeah. But it's been, it's been incredibly [00:09:00] challenging from that perspective. So you know, I, I remember not too long ago being at Strategic Coach and, and you know, really just focusing on all this stuff is going on.

[00:09:12] Paul: Where are you going to gain, where are you, where's the positive out of all of this? Mm-hmm. Because it has to be there somewhere. So, that's hard. There's no doubt. But you know, an, an example of that for us was, uh, we actually just closed on an acquisition of a company two weeks ago, August 1st. And I would say it comes outta that mindset.

[00:09:35] Paul: That mindset of. Things are going to shit everywhere, and you just need to keep making progress. Yeah. Like the company net. You can't sit back and be defensive. You need to be moving forward all the time to the best of your ability.

[00:09:51] Mary: Yeah, totally. And I don't know who said it, I feel like it's Warren Buffett or somebody, but never waste a crisis.

[00:09:57] Mary: Right, right. Yeah. This is opportunistic time to [00:10:00] grow your business. Most

[00:10:00] Paul: millionaires, right? Most millionaires, yeah. And gazillionaires make most of their money when things go bad.

[00:10:07] Mary: Yeah.

[00:10:07] Paul: Yeah.

[00:10:08] Mary: And I, and I like what you said about making progress. Like you're on a path to do what you wanna do and have the impact you wanna have in the world, regardless of what's going on, regardless around you, you gotta deal with those conditions, but, uh, you do, it doesn't change the mission.

[00:10:21] Mary: Right.

[00:10:22] Paul: It doesn't change the mission. In fact, something hap actually, I was talking to my, uh, Marianne, my HR person this morning. And she was talking to that around the core values and, and making the con, you know, the continuous improvement, the lean concept the lean mindset and the, the culture of delivering happiness.

[00:10:42] Paul: And so those are, I'm happy to say that those things are very much alive within the business. Mm-hmm. Um, it takes a long time and it takes consistency of messaging and so. In fact, that's a good story that during COVID [00:11:00] when the factories all got shut down here in Ontario. It took me 48 hours. I was like, oh my God, what are we going to do?

[00:11:10] Paul: Yeah. So, uh, you know, we have orders still coming in from the rest of the country. I have a team sitting here like, what are we doing? And part one of the things that we actually pivoted to was, okay, let's take this time. We've been, I've been here now. I think it was at the time. Maybe a year. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:28] Paul: After I purchased it and we had instilled the concept of delivering happiness, but now we took the opportunity over about eight weeks to really start to focus on a drafting of our core values. And so we had a team that worked on that for a couple of months, and we kind of came up with a, a schematic and then I said, okay let's just.

[00:11:51] Paul: Let's just sit on this now for six months and start to talk about it and, and start to let it infiltrate the business and see how it goes.

[00:11:58] Mary: Mm-hmm. Well,

[00:11:59] Paul: [00:12:00] that's still happening.

[00:12:01] Mary: Yeah.

[00:12:01] Paul: And there's been refinements and this and that, but the core principles of those core values still exist today. And, um, and yeah, it, it takes time.

[00:12:12] Mary: It takes time. And I've, I mean, I've also observed, because I know a little bit about your business and the team, I've also observed that people live the values and talk about them and hold each other accountable to them. And is this consistent with our values or is this not like it's the filter for decision making?

[00:12:26] Mary: So it's communication which sets expectation, and then there's also then the delivery, the experience that people have to live up to. That's when you know that the values are really, which is hard guiding. Yeah.

[00:12:39] Paul: Yeah. Right. Yeah, it's tough.

[00:12:41] Mary: It is tough, especially as the business changes and people change.

[00:12:44] Mary: And then you have people out in the field and people in head office and people in the factory, and people in the, you know, in management positions. Like everybody's got a different filter, a different lens that they're experiencing the business through, so,

[00:12:55] Paul: yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like we actually just made a change.

[00:12:58] Paul: Uh, and sometimes, you know, [00:13:00] sometimes not, sometimes I actually believe that words really matter, like the actual language. And so we moved our. Customer service team from not customer service, which tends to be more inbound. We actually have rejigged it through dealer support. Meaning it's a proactive approach to dealing with customers.

[00:13:24] Paul: And while that's a bit of a subtle change, it goes more along the lines of customer success, which is more outreach as opposed to inbound. We're, we're fairly automated in our approach. We're, we're, we're very technology, uh, driven company. But that means that the more technology driven you become, the more you need to be intentional.

[00:13:45] Paul: About your outreach to customers, because otherwise you did never talk to them because it's all behind technology now.

[00:13:52] Mary: Yeah. It's funny, I was listening to a podcast with, uh, Howard Schultz, like, I dunno if you're familiar with the acquired podcast. Somebody just told me about it [00:14:00] recently. Okay. It's like brain candy for business owners.

[00:14:02] Mary: 'cause it's all about they sort of do an overview of organizations, mergers, acquisitions, investment, whatever. And so three and a half hours with Howard Schultz and he was talking about Starbucks. Okay. Yeah. Not being ready because if they're all about the in-store experience and you know, the third space and all of that.

[00:14:20] Mary: Yeah. They, they launch from a technology perspective, the mobile app, and he was like, yes. Wrong thing to do. We weren't ready for it. And so what happened was, yes, people are getting their coffee, but you're missing the experience. And so that's where technology got away from Starbucks and Right. And it compromised the customer interest, experience interest.

[00:14:39] Paul: I hadn't, I had not actually heard that. Yeah. Um. I wonder what their answer to that is because they're still doing it. Right.

[00:14:47] Mary: Right. And it's hard to give people something and then take it away. So, I mean, he wasn't CEO at the time, and so, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of he can sort of. Look at it without being inside it.

[00:14:57] Mary: But I thought that was an interesting, as [00:15:00] technology makes everything better, faster, you know, cheaper, safer, all that stuff, where's the human connection? And I know that when you have a problem, a customer has a problem and they call you, and a human being answers, it's like, oh. They care about me.

[00:15:15] Mary: Right. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or better yet, in, in dealer support, to your point about words matter and they absolutely do. And dealer support. It's like, oh, I'm gonna call you and see what you need, versus waiting, waiting for the call to come in. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

[00:15:29] Paul: Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:30] Mary: Well, I love what you're building.

[00:15:31] Paul: Yeah. It's funny you say that. My, I'm a, I'm an ideator. I'm a maximizer. My mind immediately goes to, well, what can they do to improve the customer delivery at that interface? Yeah. Between the driver and when you're collecting it. And I'm like, I don't know. They've really done a whole lot of ideation around that because I think they could actually be doing a lot more.

[00:15:52] Mary: No. I mean, the one thing I've observed is they're doing more, 'cause I'm obviously a Starbucks fan. They're doing more because I walk in, I love the mobile order 'cause I like let's [00:16:00] like, cut out all the wasted time in my life. So I, yep. I drive there, I walk in to pick up my order and they're making a concerted effort to talk to me like, Hey, have a good day.

[00:16:10] Mary: Thanks for coming. Like, they're, they're bringing that level. That's

[00:16:13] Paul: good.

[00:16:13] Mary: But I don't know. Yeah,

[00:16:14] Paul: that's good.

[00:16:15] Mary: I haven't seen anything else. Yeah. Drive

[00:16:16] Paul: the drive through. There you go.

[00:16:18] Mary: Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, like I'm in and I'm out. But anyway. Okay, so now let's dial it back for a moment. 'cause now we've got a clear picture of what you're building and uh, you know, you and I have had conversations before about what is the purpose of rock solid.

[00:16:33] Mary: And you might think it's to make the best vanities in the world. And of course you wanna do that. But it isn't the purpose behind the company. No. Really. Which I see. The purpose is the energy, the fuel behind why we get up every day and do everything. So, do you wanna speak to a little bit to what the mission that you're on the purpose?

[00:16:48] Mary: Sure,

[00:16:49] Paul: yeah. I mean, I think, I think really what's under laying everything you know, a co I, I'm gonna go back probably five years ago. Mm-hmm. Maybe four years ago. I was [00:17:00] sitting. At my home on a Saturday morning, and I think I just read Dan's, uh, Dan Sullivan's, uh, uh, Ractor question book again.

[00:17:09] Paul: Mm-hmm. And I was sitting there and I just read it probably for the 25th time or something. And I'd been struggling with, to get words around really what, what we're trying to do and I think this was rooted in for me, on a real personal level, was rooted in some of the previous. Business relationships that I'd had.

[00:17:31] Paul: Mm-hmm. And it was where it, it was anything but positive. It was very caustic, it was very a lot of gaslighting. Just not necessarily the best situation. And so I'd taken a year off and, uh, and when I had the opportunity to buy rock solid and I was able to close on the deal, I'd already been ideating for really a whole year.

[00:17:55] Paul: Around what was my next gig gonna look like?

[00:17:58] Paul: And so I [00:18:00] knew what I wanted it to look and feel like, but didn't necessarily have the words at that point. But I certainly, and a lot of times it's knowing what you don't want. Yeah.

[00:18:11] Mary: So

[00:18:11] Paul: I don't want all the pettiness, I don't want, I want clarity, I want, I want people to generally want to come in and.

[00:18:21] Paul: Be a part of something. Be a part of something that's positive and growing. You know, life's as difficult as it is. From a financial perspective, from a family perspective, you don't need all that crap when you come to work as well, right? Mm-hmm. So that's, that's certainly not positive. So creating that positive space.

[00:18:38] Paul: And so I think where that led to was, you know, being introduced to the concept of unique ability again through Strategic Coach. That was pretty pivotal and we, that's one of our values here. Um, and that's actually one of the things we were talking about this morning is just what. How far we've come along now in terms of helping people really [00:19:00] lean into their unique ability.

[00:19:01] Paul: Mm-hmm. Um, I would say it, I would say in the last year we've made tremendous progress on that.

[00:19:08] Mary: Oh, that's amazing. Um, and, and,

[00:19:09] Paul: and that's why the self-managing teams actually work, because people are more and more sitting in their unique ability, so Right. Tying that back to the purpose. That's all bits and pieces of it.

[00:19:21] Paul: And so you tie it back to the whole concept of how are you elevating people's lives,

[00:19:26] Mary: right? And

[00:19:27] Paul: so as a, as a company purpose, my job is actually to help elevate everybody that's working here and my customers. How do I help elevate their lives? And we do that through purpose of. Of what unique ability and delivering happiness and, all these elements go into elevating your lives. Yeah. So we've actually had, we've exited people outta the business in a super positive way because their unique ability was, was something else. And so we helped them transition to other jobs. And [00:20:00] I say that in a super positive way. You know, one of the very first one that occurred, and I love to tell this story, um, we had a lady that, that was here when I, when I arrived great employee.

[00:20:11] Paul: You know, she basically ran the whole office, but it really wasn't her unique ability to run the office, but she really wanted to do, was run a yoga studio and, and, and so she was just fearful of that. And so once we had sort of figured that all out. We helped her transition over a period of of time where she actually started to work part-time for us and she actually went and opened a studio.

[00:20:37] Paul: And when she did that, her family came, finally her when she told her family, which she was a bit fearful of they all looked at it and they said, well, it's about time.

[00:20:46] Mary: Ah, I love it. Yeah.

[00:20:48] Paul: And so that was, uh, that was a fantastic win for her family for everybody. So, you know what's

[00:20:55] Mary: so cool about this?

[00:20:57] Mary: Like, like if the business can be a vehicle for doing [00:21:00] good, and so in, in what I'm hearing you say is that the business is a vehicle for elevating the human experience and how do you do that? Yeah. Will you help people focus on their strengths? The unique Ability language is something that comes from Dan Sullivan in all of his years.

[00:21:13] Mary: Yeah. Um, as a coach for entrepreneurs.

[00:21:15] Mary: Yep.

[00:21:16] Mary: And it's really just focusing on people. You know, the concept that everyone has their own unique strengths. And gifts and Yep. It's kind of their job in the world to figure out what those gifts are and figure out how to, you know, how to use them to contribute to the world in some way.

[00:21:31] Mary: Yeah. So if the business is a vehicle for people, learning about what those gifts are, the things they love to do, and the things that they're good at, and that means they're gonna transition outta the business. And we've had this happen in our business too, like that is a win. Because they shouldn't be, be in your business doing the thing that they are good at, but don't love.

[00:21:49] Mary: Right. They should be out in the world doing the thing they love and they're, and they're great at. So, um, me,

[00:21:55] Paul: Mediocrity is the killer of the spirit.

[00:21:58] Mary: It's the worst. And [00:22:00] I know, right? And I, I actually think that's the massive transformation that companies need, like that corporate, you know, the corporate world needs.

[00:22:07] Mary: Yeah. Nobody, nobody

[00:22:07] Paul: really, nobody ever thinks about that though, right? No. So whereas I think our philosophy is, um. It's the, the, the exact opposite. It, you know, it's, there's so many, uh, analogies, but you go back to the balanced scorecard back in the eighties and mm-hmm. And, you know, take care of your people.

[00:22:26] Paul: The people take care of the business. That's really what it, it was about. And that's what we're trying to do. Take care of the people, build trust. Then everything else just starts to, to fall into place. So, yeah.

[00:22:38] Mary: Yeah. I love it. It's hard though. Let's, I

[00:22:39] Paul: mean. It's hard. It is

[00:22:40] Mary: hard. It's hard. And it is swimming upstream.

[00:22:43] Mary: Like you're moving the opposite. Like the current in the corporate world is moving the other direction. You're swimming upstream on this one. Yeah. But when people join the business and they, and they experience and it feel it, then, I mean, that's where you get, you know, a motivated, engaged [00:23:00] group of people who are on the same mission with you.

[00:23:01] Mary: And you said to me once that everybody at the end of the day deserves to feel successful. And, uh, if you can, yeah,

[00:23:07] Paul: like literally at the end of every day. So like we asked that question right at the end of every day. Yeah. Did you feel successful? Yes or no? Yeah. And if you didn't, why not? Yeah. Let's talk about that, right?

[00:23:20] Mary: Yeah.

[00:23:20] Paul: Yeah. So let's just talk about that. And normally if you did do, if you do that all the time consistently. You'll actually end up with a pretty, and, and you take care of them then, uh, and help remove their blocks and, and, or, and or coach them or whatever it is they need.

[00:23:36] Paul: You'll end up with a good crew of people.

[00:23:39] Mary: Yeah. Which is beautiful. Yeah. In the vanity business delivering happiness or whatever business it is. Right. Whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:23:45] Paul: It almost doesn't, it doesn't really matter what the what the thing is. That's right. So it's a vehicle

[00:23:51] Mary: for elevating the human experience, which I love. It's

[00:23:53] Paul: exactly what it is.

[00:23:55] Mary: So this big decision that you made, like I, you know, you, you referenced, you know, your [00:24:00] previous, uh, experiences before rock solid and then, you know, kind of toxic environments. I know like high, high, high stress because of that toxicity. And then you take a year off, you pause, you think about you reflect what matters in life.

[00:24:16] Mary: What am I gonna, what's the next iteration of the impact I can have? And here, rock solid is. You know, is what it is. And you guys are growing way intentionally and with purpose, which I love. Yeah. So if we could rewind a little bit, I know that there are some things that, you know, shaped you growing up and, you know, into, you know, your teens and early twenties and, and you know, even, even as far as going into the family business, I'd love to hear some of those things that shaped, you know, sure.

[00:24:44] Mary: And I'm sure it comes through in rock solid today as well.

[00:24:48] Paul: Yeah, I mean my whole youth childhood was centered around sports, so whether that was soccer or squash I've, I've been [00:25:00] naturally driven, no doubt, my whole life. Um, I, uh. I, I say this and people kinda look at me like I'm strange, but I like the practice.

[00:25:09] Paul: I like to actually, you know, I go on squash court and I, and I like that. I like the monotony of hitting the ball up and down the wall or going to the field and practicing my soccer kicks, uh, at the school and things like that. So. Certainly the element of just practice and doing the work, I didn't really see it as work.

[00:25:28] Paul: I saw it as a, just simply as a path to improvement. That's really all I saw when I was younger. And then I think as I, as I started to get a little bit more into my teens and I started being able to see, oh, well if, if I got to here, I could do this. And so you start to see some patterns and having some success.

[00:25:49] Paul: And we, and we were talking earlier how, you know, my, my, my dad was on entrepreneurial in his own way. So, he actually became an entrepreneur in his early fifties, [00:26:00] which is pretty, pretty late in the game. Clearly. And, but they, my, during my real formative years, they were, my, him and my mother were working in the business.

[00:26:13] Paul: They worked and they worked and they worked and they worked. I mean, they were that of that ilk that they probably worked seven days a week. I mean, that, that's just what they did to really to survive. It was a very small business, like really small and, uh, but I mean, it grew over the years and, and, you know, they lived a lifestyle that was, you know, far superior to what they would've.

[00:26:37] Paul: Done back, back in England for sure. Mm-hmm. Um, but I guess just seeing, see that definitely influenced me. And so I, I kind of had the hard work side of it in instilled in me. Mm-hmm. Uh, young. I, I think the other side of it that, that was more my personality necessarily than theirs was. I was definitely more of a risk taker [00:27:00] and I just, I learned early on, early on just to say yes.

[00:27:05] Paul: So whatever opportunities kind of fell on my plate, I just say yes to. I don't, not, you know, Lucy but it's gotta be good reason to say no, and especially when you're young. And so as, as actually as I'm saying that to you, what I reflect on is we have a lot of young people in this business today, and what I hear a lot from younger people is, what's my purpose?

[00:27:33] Paul: Where am I going?

[00:27:35] Mary: Yeah.

[00:27:35] Paul: And I'm like, those are big questions, right?

[00:27:39] Mary: I mean, yeah.

[00:27:40] Paul: When you're, I mean, even at, in my late fifties, I'm still like, what am I doing? Where am I going? What's my purpose? So totally going.

[00:27:48] Mary: Yeah. It's like life's long question forever, not it's life's long

[00:27:52] Paul: question and they think they're gonna figure it out by the time they're 25, right?

[00:27:55] Paul: Yeah. Yeah. And so what I, what I simply try to say to them is, you [00:28:00] know. First of all, yeah, just you wanna have a longer term plan. You wanna have a, you wanna have something that's guiding you for where you want to get to, whether that's financially, spiritually you know, work-wise, career-wise, I said.

[00:28:13] Paul: But for me, what's actually more important is what are you saying yes to. Mm-hmm. And what are you just doing now? What are you doing in the next 90 days? What's your 90 day plan? Yeah, and I'm actually going through this literally right now with one of my sons.

[00:28:29] Mary: Yeah. And I,

[00:28:30] Paul: and I found a little 10 minute, uh, clip video cast yesterday so he can hear it from somebody else closer to his age.

[00:28:35] Paul: I said it to him.

[00:28:37] Mary: Who, who is it I need to know?

[00:28:39] Paul: Uh, that I can't, I couldn't tell you. I can't remember. Let was some random person. I'll send it to you, but it was just some random person.

[00:28:45] Mary: Well, I'll put it also in the show notes in case anybody else wants to reference this. Okay. But isn't it so funny that it's a

[00:28:50] Paul: 10, it's a 10 minute, yeah, it's a 10 minute planning session, so, so like, what are you doing tomorrow?

[00:28:55] Paul: What are you doing for the next 90 days?

[00:28:57] Mary: Yeah. If

[00:28:58] Paul: you're not actively thinking [00:29:00] about that, then you're just letting things happen to you. And that's autopilot. That's just autopilot, not intentional.

[00:29:09] Mary: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:09] Paul: So,

[00:29:10] Mary: well, you'll end up with a life that you don't want because the world is happening to you and you are not happening to it.

[00:29:17] Mary: So it's like the conditions of today happened and this is, and I just went along with it. And then before you know it, 10 years passed and you're not happy. You're not doing what you love doing. Um, a hundred percent. You're not with the people you love and, and inspire you and all those. Things, right? Yeah.

[00:29:31] Paul: And, and, and I think the challenge is when you're younger, you actually just don't know. You don't know what you're really gonna, right? Yeah. So, so that's why I go back to the whole concept of just say yes.

[00:29:42] Paul: So I had an opportunity when I was it was a long time ago. Now I'm trying to think about what, how old it was.

[00:29:47] Paul: But going into grade 12, I had an opportunity, I had a scholarship to go to a private school. So, I had to leave my public school. And that was, that was a big decision. Yeah. And all I could think of was, I probably would [00:30:00] regret if I didn't do this.

[00:30:01] Mary: Yeah. So just,

[00:30:02] Paul: Just say yes and show up. And it was, it was hard.

[00:30:06] Paul: It was awkward. I was a, I was definitely a fish outta water. Like there's no, like I. Yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how much of fish outta water I was at that moment in, in time. Is it because

[00:30:18] Mary: everyone at the school is like silver spoon and driving fancy cars and you're the scholarship kid who's really good at a sport?

[00:30:26] Mary: Is that it? Well, I can

[00:30:26] Paul: definitely, I can definitely tell you that I had the worst car in the parking lot if, if I had one. Yeah, exactly. If I had one, if I, and that was a big, if, certainly in grade 12, I didn't, 'cause I was taking the bus, um, right. Whereas they weren't. But you're, you know, you're, you're the only new person.

[00:30:44] Paul: Yeah. Like, literally you're the only new person. Um, they grew up with each other

[00:30:48] Mary: and you just show up on the scene. They grew up with each

[00:30:50] Paul: other. Right. And you don't have the right jacket, you don't have the uniform, you know, so you stick out like a sore thumb. Right. So, I was fortunate I had sports, [00:31:00] so, but just I was gonna say, you

[00:31:00] Mary: probably won them over with being good at squash.

[00:31:03] Mary: Well,

[00:31:04] Paul: yeah. And soccer is actually, and soccer, funny. Soccer, soccer is more important 'cause of the team sport.

[00:31:09] Mary: Oh, so you

[00:31:09] Paul: allowed me to gel with the team that way. Okay. So that was actually really important actually. But I think, you know, and then you just kind of go on from there, like going to England to train, going to The Bahamas to teach squash.

[00:31:22] Paul: You know, all these things are just sort of. In a, in a somewhat random way, going to school in the us. Mm-hmm. These are things that just happen for me, just working hard.

[00:31:35] Mary: Right.

[00:31:35] Paul: Um, so I wanna go back, not intentional.

[00:31:38] Mary: No. And I So when you go back to when you're describing the working hard, I thought it was interesting.

[00:31:42] Mary: Well, a couple things come to mind. Your parents were hard workers and you had that as a model. Like, these people work like hard work is in our blood. Like we don't just hang around and watch tv, like we wake up, we work. So there's that piece, but then there's also the part where. You like, I mean, you like practice, I'm gonna hit a ball a thousand [00:32:00] times.

[00:32:00] Mary: I'm gonna kick a ball a thousand times. I'm gonna, and then tying that practice and maybe it's like a meditation almost. It's like time alone to get really good. Yeah. Like to achieve mastery. Yeah. But there's also tying that practice to what you described as you've always been driven and so knowing that that practice is gonna get you somewhere.

[00:32:17] Mary: So those qualities all add up to, yeah, I get really good at something and an opportunity strikes. And so what is that? Luck is opportunity meets preparation or something like that.

[00:32:28] Paul: Something like that. Yeah, exactly. Something

[00:32:29] Mary: like that. Yeah. And you say yes to it. And, and what occurs to me too is it's not like you had parents in the background that were, you know, strategizing your college career or they're busy in the business, right?

[00:32:40] Mary: So these are things that you're having to sort out on your own. Yeah. Like, which is kind of a message for all parents these days. Like, don't over-engineer your kids' lives. They need to do it for themselves.

[00:32:51] Paul: I actually have a, my, my personal opinion on that is and I can tell some stories about that, like around my kids, like, so [00:33:00] yes, we paid for our kids' education, but they paid the bill.

[00:33:05] Paul: They were responsible for paying the bill.

[00:33:08] Mary: Oh, I'm not paying it for

[00:33:09] Paul: you.

[00:33:10] Mary: You know? Right.

[00:33:10] Paul: Uh, my, my, my one son had a summer job down in, in, in Boston. And so Okay. I did help him find that job, but I'm not driving you down to set you up and all the rest of it. You're Yeah. You're, you're, you're an almost an adult.

[00:33:27] Paul: I said, you got a car, go see ya. Right. And that was hard. That was hard for my wife. Of course,

[00:33:33] Mary: it's hard to do, like it's hard to let go of those things if you, it's at just like, you know, you can help.

[00:33:39] Paul: Well, I, I look at it and I reflect on mine and I'm like, well, I mean, I went on my own at 17 to, to, they, my parents didn't have a clue where I was going or like, they don't even know how I got there.

[00:33:51] Paul: I mean, somehow I had a, I had a family that I was living with in Portsmouth and, and I just went and trained every day. It just kind of happened. [00:34:00]

[00:34:00] Mary: I love that. So tell me then. Yeah, because I have similar, similar stories in my, in my background around just massive like radical independence. Yeah. What do you think that gives you now having been 17 and making these massive life decisions and moving to the US and going to The Bahamas and all that?

[00:34:16] Mary: Like what does that Well, I was funny. I was

[00:34:18] Paul: listening. Yeah, I, I, I can answer that very specifically 'cause I was listening to some, something Sam Altman was on this morning, and, and they were asking him about, you know, what should the kids be coming, well, what should they be doing? And the, and you know, there's the obvious things that they talk about where, you know, coding is dead and blah, blah, blah.

[00:34:37] Paul: Mm-hmm. But you get beyond the more technical things and, and his first word was resiliency. Yeah. And so what I would say is that I've built up a really, really big muscle of resiliency.

[00:34:52] Mary: Mm-hmm. I

[00:34:52] Paul: don't really, I can get put into a spin for maybe 24 hours, but my, my brain starts to move to [00:35:00] solution focus very quickly.

[00:35:02] Paul: And so the resiliency of the ups and the downs and, and, and, and doing what needs to be done and making those tough decisions. Then being willing to back it up with hard work.

[00:35:15] Mary: Right, right. It's such a, it's such a interesting thing to have kids in, your kids are a bit older than mine, but to have them in this stage of their life and you're like, oh, like you would never put your kids through heartache on purpose.

[00:35:29] Mary: But then I'm like, like I moved a million times growing up. I left, like my parents came to Ontario in 1993 and I was like, I don't wanna be here. So I just picked up and went back to Seattle. You know, I kept my tips from waitressing in a shoebox. I bought a mattress at a garage sale. How gross is that?

[00:35:47] Mary: Right, exactly.

[00:35:47] Paul: It's disgusting. Yeah, a hundred percent. Sleeping

[00:35:49] Mary: on a mattress that I found on the street. But, and I would say, you

[00:35:52] Paul: know, my wife had very similar, did she? Yeah. Event. Very much so. Like she came to Toronto when she was 18 and, and, [00:36:00] uh, she never left. And so yeah, you're, you know, you have to get a job like, like, oh my God, like today, if your kids have a job in university, you're being mean to them.

[00:36:10] Paul: Uh, I mean, I worked during university. My wife worked all during, like she had a, you know, they had to put themselves up. I, I, I, it takes me also back to, we were talking about books a little bit, but certainly, you know, uh, I think it's Angela Duckworth, her book on grit. I mean, that's, that's what we're talking about, right?

[00:36:28] Paul: It's building grit and you're doing your children. I believe you're doing your children a great disservice if you're, don't allow them to build grit and you don't allow them to fail.

[00:36:40] Mary: Totally.

[00:36:40] Paul: My kids have all failed at something many times.

[00:36:43] Mary: And if

[00:36:43] Paul: they're not failing, they're not trying hard enough.

[00:36:46] Mary: Yeah. And if you're in there fixing it all, all the time, like I have friends who like helped their kids in their university accounting class. I'm like, I don't even know what classes my kids taking, writing their papers. Yeah. I'm like, geez, I don't even know if my kids are, are what classes they're in. Or [00:37:00] if they're passing, that's probably a

[00:37:01] Paul: problem.

[00:37:01] Paul: My parents never saw a report card.

[00:37:03] Mary: No.

[00:37:04] Paul: Ever.

[00:37:05] Mary: Yeah. Yeah. Because it's your life. It's your life. You gotta, you gotta, it's,

[00:37:10] Paul: It's your life. So I guess that's the, that's the question. When does it become their life versus the parents' life?

[00:37:16] Mary: What a good

[00:37:16] Paul: question.

[00:37:17] Mary: Well, I'm living that right now. Okay. So I have a 20-year-old who's home from school, and he's living like, he's completely a grownup adult, independent in all the things.

[00:37:26] Mary: He'll go to his work, his summer job, he'll come home, he'll go golfing, and then he'll go play field hockey. At no point is there anybody like, you know, doing a dish or his own laundry or any of the things. So there's like this, I'm free and I'm a grownup, but please take care of me. I'm like,

[00:37:39] Paul: exactly. Yeah.

[00:37:41] Mary: Yeah. I know it's not, it's time for him to go back to di to school. We're ready for that. He, he's

[00:37:47] Paul: gotta, he's gotta do it when he is there, doesn't he?

[00:37:50] Mary: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:51] Paul: No, we're ready when they go back to school.

[00:37:54] Mary: Well, my daughter's leaving though. That's a hard thing. Because I, she's been in the house, so this is like the first time.

[00:37:59] Mary: Yeah, of course. So it's [00:38:00] like the first empty nest moment is coming in like two weeks. But, uh, gotcha. If you find me curled up in a corner, you can save me.

[00:38:08] Mary: There you go. Well,

[00:38:09] Mary: anyway, this has been lovely. You have, so if you had like, thank you. One message. One message, one key takeaway for any listeners out there, whether they're 20 years old or 70.

[00:38:21] Paul: Oh, that's an interesting one,

[00:38:23] Mary: right?

[00:38:23] Paul: Uh, well, I, I'm a lifelong learner, so, just, you know, my dad, my dad just turned 95.

[00:38:31] Mary: Holy smokes. Congratulations. That's amazing. And he still goes

[00:38:34] Paul: on his, he goes on his iPad and he, so like you think about that e even our generation, right? There was no email. When did the email come about?

[00:38:45] Paul: It's crazy. You

[00:38:45] Mary: were just talking about that like in like early two thousands maybe, when it was like something really accessible, I don't know.

[00:38:52] Paul: Yeah. When it was really accessible, right? Yeah. But well into our lives and so mm-hmm. You see these older people, like my dad. Yeah. I love it. [00:39:00] Yeah.

[00:39:00] Paul: Adopting to technology. And that only happens because of, um, interest in learning. So whether you're 20, 50, 70, 90, just keep learning something. It's the, uh, it will increase your longevity, for sure. Mm-hmm. And, uh, yeah.

[00:39:20] Mary: I love it.

[00:39:21] Paul: Keep learning.

[00:39:22] Mary: No, you know, I think Peter Drucker started writing all of his books after the age of 60.

[00:39:27] Mary: Yeah.

[00:39:27] Mary: Like, I think he's written, like he wrote like 60 books or something like that before. I, I don't have those numbers. Right. But it's something in that territory. Yeah. I didn't know that Ing. And, you know, the other thing that occurs to me lately as I get into this. Second half of life people are like retiring.

[00:39:41] Mary: And I'm like, why are you retiring? Like you have the most wisdom and knowledge, the most experience and the most you've ever had to offer as a human being. Now maybe you wanna retire and you wanna go golf, and that's totally up to you. But if it's because the culture says now we wind down. At the very point, right, when you have the most to give and [00:40:00] the most to contribute, even if it's in like mentorship or you know, whatever.

[00:40:04] Mary: Like there's, there's something's something, there's so much there and, uh, I think, you know, humanity is missing it. Well, and, and

[00:40:09] Paul: especially, especially with all of the, just with demographics and, you know. There's not enough younger people. The older do need to be working. The world needs be working. Right.

[00:40:22] Paul: Even if it is. And so there is going to be a shift there. I do believe there's gonna be a shift where there's going to be a lot more older people working longer, but less hours. So it's not gonna be 40 hours 'cause they don't wanna work that. Mm-hmm. But I could see a lot of older people staying on and working 20 hours, 25 hours a week.

[00:40:43] Paul: Because it still gives, they still get, uh, value out of it.

[00:40:48] Mary: Totally. It gives you purpose. You're contributing, gives purpose like we're wired to contribute something. I would've be

[00:40:52] Paul: absolutely lost. I would be lost. Yeah. Um, I'd have to really work hard and I haven't even [00:41:00] started thinking about No. What's next?

[00:41:02] Paul: Next, because I, I just, right now, I don't really see an end to this right now at all. I'm only 50 Whatcha talking

[00:41:10] Mary: about? I know. I, I'm only

[00:41:12] Paul: 58 and I'm, you know, I'm in good shape and I work out all the time and yeah. So

[00:41:18] Mary: that's, I'm in better shape

[00:41:18] Paul: now than I was when I was 40. Probably.

[00:41:21] Mary: I probably would say this.

[00:41:22] Mary: Yeah. Yeah. That's the way to go. If you know more and you have more tools and you, and you, you, you understand what it is to eat well, sleep well.

[00:41:31] Paul: Right.

[00:41:31] Mary: You know, move well, all those things. Yeah. That's amazing.

[00:41:34] Paul: There you go. Absolutely. Well, Paul Gardner,

[00:41:36] Mary: thank you so much for your time.

[00:41:38] Paul: Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

[00:41:39] Paul: Appreciate

[00:41:40] Mary: work hard, appreciate say. Yes. I love it.

[00:41:44] Paul: All righty. All right.

[00:41:45] Mary: Thanks everyone. Talk to you soon. I'll see you next time. Okay.